Chit Chat

Everybody seems to be asking Joan Rivers's famous question: "Can we talk?"

Barack Obama wants to talk to the Iranians.

Jimmy Carter wants to talk to Hamas.

The only top Democrat who doesn't want to talk is Hillary Clinton: she's urging a boycott of the Opening Ceremonies in Beijing.

Apparently, talking to America's worst terrorist enemies is A-OK, but talking to one of our biggest trading partners hosting the Olympic Games is bad.

This is why Democrats lose most presidential elections, and why they may lose this one too.

They have criticized President Bush for being inconsistent in the application of his wartime policy: removing terrorist regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, but retaining relations with other terrorist regimes like Saudi Arabia. He talks to the Russians (who are pulling the strings of many of our terrorist enemies, including Iran) but won't talk to the Iranians. The Democrats have jumped on him for this case-by-case approach to foreign policy, but they are just as selective.

The question for Democrats is this: if you want to "talk" to Iran, Hamas, etc., what exactly are you going to talk about? What are you prepared to say?

The United States should never be in the position of initiating or agreeing to talks with an enemy unless we are prepared to back those talks with the possibility of force. Diplomacy can be useful, but it most certainly will only buy the enemy time to regroup and rearm---unless the credible use of force hangs over it. And if the enemy continues to behave as an enemy---in both Iran's and Hamas's cases, that means killing Americans---then after a diplomatic ultimatum, force should be applied.

That doesn't necessarily mean military force, although that's usually the only thing to which our enemies respond. It can also mean economic and political force. In 1980, Carter decided to register our outrage over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by boycotting the Moscow Olympics. That had zero effect on Soviet behavior. What did? The ban on high-technology coming into the Soviet Union. That hurt the regime more than anything else.

We talked to the Soviets all the time, but it was force of all kinds---and the threat of bigger force---that tamed their behavior. The same may or may not work with Islamic regimes and terrorist groups whose anti-American hostility is grounded in religious fanaticism.

But talking to Iran and Hamas while boycotting the Chinese is the same kind of absurd behavior for which Democrats have criticized President Bush.

We can't choose our enemies, but we can choose how we deal with them. And without the credible threat of force, they win.

Comments

[SteveOk]

The recent actions by the authorities in Texas by rounding up a whole religious group reminds me of deportation tactics practiced by Nazi Germany in WWII, the old Soviet Union, Japan, and America during WWII when Roosevelt rounded up Japanese Americans and relocated them. It's amazing that in 2008, in America, the practice of deportation still exists. It is not necessary in America to conduct a criminal investigation without the tactic of deportation. This tactic should be banned in America.

[Phil]

Obama is the modern day Neville Chamberlain

[FK]

Steveok --

Are you comparing polygamists to Japanese and Italians?

[gringoman]

Monica,

The issue of Bush and Beijing---I shall submit--- is less about talk than the subject of Debtor and Creditor (politically incorrect as that may be with the Globo Guys.) Anyway, the issue and a suddenly hot sidebar to it is now elaborated in BUSH AT THE GAMES? The latter is a well-marinated redaction of previous gringommentary at monicamemo. It also includes a foto of Georgie Bush culturally cross-dressing with Vladimir Putin. The pic is authentic and NOT Photo-shopped. Now at http://www.gringoman.com

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Truther,

Good luck. You are presenting facts about un-sustainable population growth which NOBODY wants to face, whether Right, Left, Commie, Catholic, Pub, Dem, Dhimmi, proggy, Warmologist etc etc. It's like a politician daring to tell the multitudes that he can't really create five thousand loaves for them out of a bread crumb. Ain't gonna happen, outside of Sunday School or socialist re-education camp.

But don't worry, sooner or later the Secular Sammys, and even the sophisticated religious will get it. Even they will discover why the weird but apocalytpic calamities and thundering judgements of REVELATIONS eventually leave the back-country Bible stalls and come back to haunt the Hubris. Just be patient The wheel always turns, even if few notice until it's almost on top of them and their sexually-diseased children

Meanwhile, have you found any canned salmon today that's not just that stupid "farmed" mush they try to foist on the population explosion?

MICHAEL AVARI,

Speaking of right-wing bomb throwers, you may know of Ann Coulter's solution for the "Islamic Problem": Convert them to Christianity.

I assume that you, as a non-Inquisitional Catholic, disagree, yes?

M/M,

Thank you for looking at Hillary Clinton so that I don't have to.

======================================

[SteveOk]

Fred, no, I'm comparing the tactics of the Texas authorities with the deportation tactics of the German Nazis and Japanese during WWII. Roosevelt himself engaged in this tactic in WWII when he rounded up all Japanese Americans. What the Texas authorities are doing is rounding up a whole religious group in the name of a criminal investigation. It's old fashion deportation (what the Nazis did to the Jews in WWII) and it is not necessary to conduct a criminal investigation and rely on deportation as a tactic. It's a Gestapo tactic that should have been banned in America a long time ago.

[FK]

Are the polygamists being deported? If so, to where?

[SteveOk]

(Foxnews)Some 133 women left the ranch voluntarily with the children and were being housed at a historic fort here while authorities conduct interviews. Dressed in ankle-length dresses with their hair pinned up in braids, the women milled about Monday as the children played on the fort's old parade grounds.

State troopers were holding an unknown number of men in the compound until investigators finished executing a house-to-house search of the ranch, which includes a cheese-making plant, a cement plant and several large housing units. They initially had difficulty getting access to the 80-foot white limestone temple that rises out of the brown scrub, but were searching it Monday...
---------------------------

Fred, they have deported over 400 children from this religious group. Supposedly the women have left "voluntarily" and the men are under virtual house arrest. They are being housed somewhere under state custody. This is deportation pure and simple, and it's a tactic that should have been banned decades ago after FDR used this tool. The Texas authorities have joined Nazi Germany, the old Soviet Union, and Japan during WWII as users of deportation. You can conduct a criminal investigation without deportation as the primary tool. It's incredible that in America in 2008 this primitive, barbarian tactic is still is use.

[FK]

Are you confusing "deportation" with "interment"? Deportation is when the government forces you to leave the country.

[FK]

I'm sorry. The term is "internment". Apparently "interment" is when you are buried. I'll try to remember that "n" in the future.

[SteveOk]

(Wikipedia):Deportation can also happen within a country, when (for example) an individual or a group of people is forcibly resettled to a different part of the country. If ethnic groups are affected by this, it is also referred to as population transfer. The rationale is often that these groups might assist the enemy in war or insurrection. For example, the American state of Georgia deported 400 female mill workers during the Civil War on the suspicion they were Northern sympathizers.[1]

During World War II, Volga Germans, Chechens, and others in the Soviet Union were deported by Joseph Stalin (see Population transfer in the Soviet Union) and Japanese and Japanese Americans were deported in the United States of America by President Franklin Roosevelt (see Japanese American internment).

In the 19th century, the federal government of the United States (particularly during the administration of President Andrew Jackson) deported numerous Native American tribes. The most infamous of these deportations became known as the Trail of Tears. American state and local authorities also practiced deportation of undesirables, criminals, union organizers, and others. In the late 19th and early 20th century, deportation of union members and labor leaders was not uncommon during strikes or labor disputes.[2] For an example, see the Bisbee Deportation.
------------------------------------------

Fred, an example of "internment" would be what we are doing with the terrorists in Gitmo. They are being held in custody without a trial. Deportation is the forced removal of a people for a political reason such as the forced removal of Jews in Europe during WWII and their forced internment in concentration camps. They had to be forcably removed (deported) from their homes first before they could be interned. The Mormons in Texas have been removed from their homes in the name of a criminal investigation. My thesis is that you should be able to conduct a criminal investigation (in a civilized society) without resorting to a Gestapo tactic called deportation.

[FK]

That's just playing semantics. We can't leave these girls in the place where they were being abused. That's just not an option. Instead of calling it "deportation", call it "protective custody"; does that help you?

[J. Pierpont Finch]

The Iranian president (The Hitler of our time) has been crystal clear about Iran's goals - destroy Israel, destroy the U.S., and usher in worldwide Islamic dominance dominance and control. Those ignorant fools who support "talking with Iran" are the appeasors of our time.

Neville Chamberlain's "Peace For Our Time" speech
--------------------------------------------------
http://eudocs.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Neville_Chamberlain's_%22Peace_For_Our_Time%22_speech

The following is the wording of a printed statement that Neville Chamberlain waved as he stepped off the plane on 30 September, 1938 after the Munich Conference had ended the day before:

"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.

We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again. We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chamberlain read the above statement in front of 10 Downing St. and said:

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
================

And of course World War II ensured until 1945 with death and destruction that has not been seen since.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (in the atomic age, yet!)
- Santiana

[Account Deleted]

Gringoman - correct. Conversion should come from one's heart, therefore of one's own volition.

I think Ann wanted to "perfect the Jews" too, right?!

Cheers,

[FK]

Michael --

A great example of why Ann Coulter should not be quoted by anyone who wants the conservative movement to look reasonable. There's something truly wrong with that woman.

[M/M]

Gringoman,

I see you found the picture of George Bush, so I won't have to. Campaigning for Hillary is a tough job, but a necessary one. McCain lost my trust with McCain-Kennedy and I'll watch but I'm not committing to anything.

John McCain was on Hannity's radio show today and Hannity asked him the questions conservatives care about. I'm not going to go over all the points, but let me just say Hannity addressed my concerns, especially immigration. McCain admitted that he "heard the people" and that he realizes that the American people want the border secured first. I'm holding him to it.

[M/M]

The financial cost of illegal immigration on the tax payer.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080409/NATION/341902874/1002/NATION

[M/M]

And here is the 16 year old girl's story. Not feeling sorry for the polygamist.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4617361&page=1

[M/M]

Nothing unusual about "a number of teenage girls walking around pregnant". Illegals have rights, terrorists have rights, why shouldn't "registered sex offenders"? Now, if those teenage girls object to having sex with their 50 year old husbands, it is perfectly ok to beat some sense into them. What's the big deal? Maybe we should introduce the burqa into our culture.

Here is what the law officials found at the compound:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,349113,00.html

"Court documents said a number of teen girls at the compound were pregnant, and all the children were removed on the grounds that they were in danger of "emotional, physical, and-or sexual abuse."

On Wednesday, state officials said the women and children were in good overall health but would not comment on pregnancies. About a dozen children appear to have chicken pox but were being separated at the evacuation sites, which include an old historic fort and a convention center here, said Child Protective Services spokesman Chris Van Deusen.

Authorities were trying to determine the identities and parentage of many of the children; some were unwilling or unable to provide the names of their biological parents or identified multiple mothers.

Officials still are not sure where the 16-year-old girl is who made the initial call, and she is not named among the children in initial custody petitions by the state.

Texas has an outstanding arrest warrant for the man alleged to have been the girl's husband, Dale Barlow, 50. He is a registered sex offender who pleaded no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor in Mohave County, Arizona, last year."

[Ref.BB]

As President Nixon once said, "The President of the United States warns just once." (Not verbatim)

The cold war is heating up yet again.

Excellent work Dr.

[SteveOk]

"Nothing unusual about "a number of teenage girls walking around pregnant". Illegals have rights, terrorists have rights, why shouldn't "registered sex offenders"? Now, if those teenage girls object to having sex with their 50 year old husbands, it is perfectly ok to beat some sense into them. What's the big deal? Maybe we should introduce the burqa into our culture."

M/M, in case you haven't noticed we have a lot of teenage girls walking around our society pregnant, duh. Does that give the Texas authorities the right to throw the Constitution out the window and institute a barbaric practice of the Gestapo called Deportation (the rounding up of whole groups of people and doing whatever with them). Is that America? I have a novel idea, how about conducting a civilized criminal investigation and prosecuting the guilty instead of Deportation?

[FK]

No, Steveok, pregnant teenagers walking around doesn't give the authorities the right to invade a group. What gave them the right was that one of those teenagers called the authorities and requested help because she was being repeatedly beaten and because her sister was about to be given to the man who was beating her, too.

You might want to be more careful with the junior high school expression "duh" because it could certainly be applied to you here.

Really . . . get over your obsession with the word "deportation".

[SteveOk]

Fred, how about conducting a criminal investigation and arresting the guilty instead of wholesale deportation of the whole religious group? Is that too much to ask for? Criminal investigations should not include deportation.

[FK]

So what do you suggest? Leaving everyone in the exact location where the abuse allegedly took place? I believe the laws are different where child abuse is involved, and it is not unusual for the child to be removed from the home and placed in foster care. There are cases in the news where a child was not removed where there was evidence in abuse and the public goes nuts, screaming 'how could this happen?'

Polygamy leads to the abuse of young women. I'm not sure why you are so defensive of it.

[M/M]

Steve,

I appreciate your passion, but I am obviously disturbed by the story from the other side. I do think that the law officials did the right thing because there is evidence of abuse. My point about the pregnant teenagers is that this is solid evidence that the teenage girl who called for help was not making up a story; it is illegal in our society to have sex with a teenager.

I haven't been following this story in close detail, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I felt that the law enforcement agents had to move quickly because the children were in danger. When there is evidence of abuse the children need to be moved into "protective custody" so that they are taken out of immediate danger.

I understand that people have the right to worship different religions in our society, but they do not have the right to break the law. If this sect practiced human sacrifice, the authorities would act the same way.

From what I'm reading, these children are being indoctrinated into this cult against their will. If they object to having sex, they are treated as if they are doing something wrong. This is child abuse and it is the government's obligation to protect the rights of the children.

This is an interesting discussion. I have to go know, but perhaps we can continue this later.

[FK]

M/M --

You are on the right track on this issue. When children are involved, the authorities can't take a chance that the abuse will continue. Special circumstances apply.

[gringoman]

Michael Avari,

At the risk of ignoring prog advice on what conservative discourse should or should not mention:

When Ann Coulter says "Convert the muslims," does that have to mean heartless violence, as when muslims threaten to decapitate anyone leaving their Ummah?

I don't know, but invite your insight. Christian missionaries try to convert almost anyone. Does that mean ignoring the heart?

As a Catholic, you may be aware that the current Pope Benedict is also suggesting the conversion of muslims.
How different do you see that from Ann Coulter (whose name should not be uttered by conservatives, as those guardians of free speech, the lib-oriented, will remind you. I believe that Pope Benedict, however, is not on their proscribed list, at least not yet)?

Also, you said that Coulter is out to "perfect the Jews"?

Are you quoting her, or interpreting her?

I ask because I thought that saw was settled by now. Most Christians hold that perfection is impossible without accepting Jesus Christ. They also hold that Jesus is the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, proclaimed by Jews who rebelled against the Jewish establishment of 2000 years ago.

Most Jews today still side with those non-rebelling Jews, i.e. they resist the "salvation," (ergo, "perfection")which Christians offer them.

So, are you saying that Ann Coulter, when mentioning "perfection," was being Christian, or un-Christian?

[FK]

Dude --

I'm not saying you can't mention Ann Coulter. Mention her all you want. Just keep in mind that when you quote her, you lose credibility with reasonable people, and you remind us that the conservative movement is a bad joke.

Ann Coulter shouldn't be held out to represent Christians either. She did indeed say that Jews were un-perfected on Donny Deutsch's show, and he expressed great offense as she tried to justify what she said, and only dug herself in deeper.

[gringoman]

M/M:

I heard the McCain/Hannity too. Sounded to me like McCain realizes he's got a problem with conservatives. He even seemed to be ceding some ground on McCain-Feingold (admitting it has problems) and on what gringoVision terms "Illegalismo."

Rest assured, the gringomanic Election 2008 National Desk will be monitoring Johnny Boy. Good luck with SatanWatch and maybe Reverend Wright's protege, Charisma Barry.

As for the foto of George Bush in Confucius drag, now posted for BUSH AT THE GAMES? at http://www.gringoman.com/
AMERICAN DAUGHTER (sometimes linked to by NY Times) is linking to the gringomanic post and also adding (at AMERICAN DAUGHTER) another pic which I haven't seen yet, but might be fun.

ps ImusWatch. Is that Bernardo del Bronx doing The Godfather? Pretty good. If it is, it means he's allowed to do Italians and Irish, but not The Protected Children, like Mayor Nagin.

Well, that's two out of three for The New ("improved") Imus

[gringoman]

FK:

Thank you for clarifying for us what you feel should be the parameters of conservative speech.

You don't like to be called "anti-conservative"? Then what, pray tell? You already dodged "liberal." You dodged "progressive" even.

You can't be an enemy of labels, since you are always lecturing us about "conservatives" and "right-wingers."

As for La Coulter, who seems to have got your goat. I didn't hear the interview you mention, so I don't know if she misspoke in any way.

I do know that most Christian thinkers see Christianity as the logical extension of Judaism. If you want to quibble about "logical" and "perfect," go ahead, harp away. And while you obviously would like to lay it on Coulter, you might want to look at the mass of Christian theologians behind her.

Some conservatives dislike Coulter because she often makes them feel burned or hurled out of polite society where they feel comfortable.

Most liberals resent her for more than that. The brighter ones, at least, are galled by the fact that underneath her box of grenades are many books and other data that firmly support her little firestorms.

Inflammatory AND intelligent AND researched. It seems so unfair.

You just proved it again by your ignorance re Christianity and Judaism.
(Or were you just pretending to be ignorant about such a fundamental theological point?)

[Account Deleted]

Gringoman,

Search on “Ann Coulter” on YouTube and you will see the interview during which she talks about the “perfection of Jews”. I am certainly not an expert on her works, so I must confess (as we Catholics are trained to do!) I don’t how serious she was.

My problem with this kind of talk – suggesting that all Muslims are barbaric because some are, or stating that Christians are perfected Jews — is that it sounds, well, ungodly. We are taught humility above all, and that applies to the Pope.

Jesus never won anyone over by “converting” or “perfecting” them. His followers choose to be Christians (the ones who aren’t coerced) because there is something appealing in it for them. They struggle with their decision each day, and it is that internal struggle with one’s human condition that perfects (which no human can attain).

As a Catholic, I learn a lot from Jews and Muslims. Muslim respect fasting and prayer like no other religion. In his book “Jews”, Arthur Hertzberg recounts being criticized by his Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan for reciting on Thursday what the Rabbi taught him on Tuesday. Kaplan explained his admonishing the confused student this way, “But, Arthur, I’ve grown since Tuesday.”

By the way, two great books on this topic are Buckley’s “Near My God” (he writes he left the “To Thee” off the title to indicate his own imperfection); and my friend Joseph Girzone (author of the Joshua series), “My Struggle With Faith”.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion, Gringoman.

Cheers,

[FK]

Gringoman --

You can hear what Ann Coulter said for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wnPHFSdrME

What she says is offensive to Jews, or at least to this Jew, especially since I am a secular Jew, so I get to hear garbage like this from religious Christians and religious Jews, neither of which are pleased with how I live my life.

Don't even suggest that Ann Coulter has the facts behind her. Her ranting is as fact-based as Bill O'Reilly's.

I'm not sure what you mean by how I "proved" my ignorance re Christianity and Judaism, so I can't even respond.

I don't recall any discussion of whether I was "anti-conservative". I like conservatives that will engage in reasonable discourse, like Mr. Avari. I don't like conservatives that just rant and call me a socialist, like you and Allah S./Gummah, or whatever he calls himself now.

I think you can safely call me a liberal. I just don't like when people dismiss what I say with things like "you're just a lib", as if it's a dirty word. Liberals have diverse views, and we often don't even agree with each other. I don't like people telling me what I think based on what they've heard other liberals say. This may explain my reluctance to be labelled, but so be it. You'll call me whatever you want anyway, I'm sure.

[Account Deleted]

Gringoman,

I don't believe anyone participating on Monica's site is ignorant, certainly not Fred. The discussions are lively, as we all make errors in citing facts and drawing conclusion from them. Do you agree?

Now, please allow me to put these questions to you (why should you have all the fun?!):

1. Does Coulter calling Obama "B. Hussein Obama" indicate intelligence or desparation?
2. Is it becoming of an educated woman?

regards,

[FK]

Michael --

You are still the voice of reason.

[gringoman]

FROM MICHAEL AVARI:Now, please allow me to put these questions to you (why should you have all the fun?!):

1. Does Coulter calling Obama "B. Hussein Obama" indicate intelligence or desparation?
2. Is it becoming of an educated woman?

Michael,

You realize, do you, that you are treading on un-charted territory here?

For the first time in U.S. history, it has become politically incorrect to mention the full name of a leading Presidential candidate. (If I err, do correct me.)

We are not talking about slurs or manglings of the name. We are talking about the gentleman's legal name, a name he has chosen to live with his entire life and never sought to change. True, his middle name
"Hussein" may not be a favorite (yet) in the US heartland, or the equal of "Mohammed" which has become a leading name for babies born in the UK today (if we can believe the BBC et al.)

Apparently Mr. Obama didn't mind the use of his full name during his 20 years of apprencticeship in black nationalist Chicago, or with his mentor and father figure the Reverend Wright (a former muslim, according to TNR.)

So, in answer to your question about "bad girl" Ann Coulter: I see her use of Obama's legal name to be a sign of her refusing to play Lefty's game of Politically Correct, a game historically rooted in Stalinism, established in the U.S. by the liberal-left, and which has cowed even so-called conservatives who now submit, in order to be "nice" and "decent," (or so they assure themselves.)

Coulter refuses to submit. (Perhaps another sign that she could never make a good muslim?)

Could an "educated woman" do this?

In today's PC-smothered U.S? Hell no---unless she happens to be an educated warrior woman,

Re your point about "ignorant." Let's leave aside the quibble about "perfect" or "perfection" for now, since it's more emotionally charged than "logical" and will easily set off the neurotic.

Proposition: Most Christians---or their theologians--- see their religion as the logical extension of Old Testament Judaism.

You either agree or disagree.

If you agree, how is it not "ignorant" for someone to ignore this profound and vital link between the two religions and instead to get lawyerly and Pharisee-like about the difference between "logical" and "perfect" in this context?

Is being secular an excuse for being an ignoramus?

[FK]

Gringoman's last sentence was obviously a dig at me since I identified myself as secular earlier. It's an example of why this blog has such a terrible tone.

I am actually knowledgeable about religions, although I choose not to practice because I think that religion's effect on the world has been overwhelmingly negative, and I believe that man invented the concept of God to help him deal with his fears.

But I can still resent Coulter suggesting that the ideal America would be happy Christians and that Jews need to be perfected. You can make excuses for her, Gringoman, but I suggest that that may make you the ignoramus.

[Account Deleted]

Gringoman,

It is actually not the first time. Recall that Bush senior was constantly disparagingly called “George Herbert Walker Bush” by his opponents which caused him or Qualye (I forgot which) to lash out against their opponent in a national debate “Do you even know who Herbert Walker is?” It would be just as disrespectful of me to call Ann, “A. Hart Coulter, if she asks me not to. To Obama's, credit, he is too noble to ask.

Do you dispute that Ann is using this appellation not to exercise her right to political correctness, but to aggravate Obama’s connection with either a) his African heritage, b) a possible connection to Islam, or c) both? Do you dispute that there is even the slightest innuendo in her using his name that way? Or do you really believe he is respecting the gentleman’s legal name?

If Coulter, as a conservative, refuses to “submit” to being nice and decent, that neither contributes to her converting the left or elevating the right.

With respect to your other point, it is does not follow syllogistically that if most theologians view Christianity as a “logical” extension of Judaism that it is true. This is not a matter of logic but of faith. Therefore, anyone exploring the connection between the Old and the New is not by necessity ignorant.

Cheers,

[Ummahgummah]

Quote from above:

The paste function isn't working so I'll have to ad-lib.. the Russians are said to be supporting Iran and other assoreted enemies of ours.

Let's not forget that WE supported the Taliban in the late 70s in Afghanistan and is is WE who supported the moslem Republic of Kosovo, which is tantamount toi a land grab.. right out of the moslem playbook.. they move in slowly and increase their numbers. Then they make life uncomfortable, later unlivable for everyone else so they gain the upper hand in the territory in question.

They're doing this in Europe as we speak.

And we're next.

Anyway.. we have screwed the Russians royally in both Afghanistan and Serbia.. while in fact aiding our mutual enemies.

The Russians have long memories and they're paying us back - even if it's at their own long-term peril.

We and the Russians thought we were manipulating islam for our ends when it looks as if they've been playing us the entire time.

Bush MUST go to the Olympics. I want a ruthless Nation like China on my side when the going gets tough.

We need some tough people on our side since we're not willing to be tough on our own.. ditto the Russians..

Anyone who hates islam is my friend.

The Chinese KNEW why they built that Great Wall of theirs.. that's what we need to build on our borders by the weay..

[FK]

Allah/Ummah --

Do you have any interests other than Muslim-bashing?

[Ummahgummah]

K-Lib, do you have any interests other than Allah-bashing?

Of course not.. you can't contest any of the facts I have given.

So like a typical lib u try and distract by getting personal.

It's an old Marxist rhetoric trick.

When it comes to islam and its political aims I know what I am talking about.

Your friend Obama is by the way engaging in the islamic practice called "taqyiyya" which means "playing possum".. pretending you are something that you are not. Or in his case pretending NOT to be what you really are.

His ex-moslem "reverend" Wrong and his wife are definitely company that should be used to define him - since he won't define himself.

Yep, there are stories breaking that the good 'reverend' used to be a Black Moslem.

He still preaches like he is.

[FK]

And somehow while accusing me of being evasive, you manage to be evasive.

We've already been back and forth on all this. I'm asking a totally new question. Do you have any interests other than Muslim-bashing?

Music? Books? Sports? Anything? Or is your entire being dedicated to being anti-Muslim?

[Ummahgummah]

Re. the child-molesting sect.. deport them to the islamic country of their choice.. they worship a pedophile named 'mahomet' and they practice arranged forced marriages and assorted polyamory involving multiple wives and domestic slaves.

[Ummahgummah]

So these guys will fit right in..

LOL

[FK]

AS/UG --

Before you get too cocky, maybe you want to check out the documents that are the basis of the Judeo-Christian religions, which are full of polygamy (Abraham, for example), incest (Lot), sex (Onan spilling his seed), and murder (throughout the book). But I guess our books are better than theirs, huh?

[Ummahgummah]

Fred, you keep asking me questions about my private life.. You refuse to deal with the FACTS I present and the implications arising thereof.

Big difference.

[Ummahgummah]

Fred..

You're not going to get me with tu quoque. Our books are just that - books. Written by humans. Subject to interpretation.

THEY consider Mein KKKuranpf to be the literal word of God. You are considered an apostate - and treated as such as demanded in the KKKoran - if you as much as question any of the tenets set forth therein.

This is not a fight of Us vs. them. This is a fight of them vs. the Rest of the World.

Just ask the Hindus and the Buddhists.. the real ones, not the Hollyweird types like Richard Gerbil.

[Ummahgummah]

we don't have Christians and Jews demonstrating violently over some cartoons.. and by the way.. they publish really nasty racist cartoons about Israel and the USA and the West in general.

You see they think they are the new "Herrenmenschen" and as such they are entitled to endless payments from our taxpayers and respectful treatment must be accorded them while they are free to insult and injure everyone else.

I say we match them bit for bit in nasty rhetoric.

And no kowtowing at the UN either.

[Ummahgummah]

CAse in point: They have laws in many moslem countries forbidding conversion from islam to any other religion. Nor can you simply go agnostic or atheist all of a sudden.

Have you ever heard of "honor killings"? Name ONE honor killing that was done by a Buddhist or a Jew or or a Christian.

Even here in the West moslems who leave their "faith" have to live secret lives..

The Dutch film maked Van Gogh was murdered by an "immigrant" moslem who didn;t like Mr. Van Gogh's views on islam.

Mind you, that was in HOLLAND, which is Van Gogh's country, not in Morocco where the killer vermin came from!

Why am I the only one who is filled with rage about the attacks on our compatriots who dare speak out on islam?!

The libs don't care about women's and gay rights either wehen it comes to islam!!

They'll throw Freedom of Speech right under the bus if they can cully favor with these barbarian "Noble Savage" throwbacks..

As long as they hate America they are heroes to the Left!!

I AM SO SICK OF THIS!!!

[Ummahgummah]

When they invade.. err.. immigrate to our Western Lands they need to OBEY OUR LAWS!!

They are not welcome any longer!

They have worn out their welcome like a bad prayer rug.

[M/M]

Oh, we are back here. UG, I am disappointed in Savage. He spent most of last summer condemning the sadomasochists, but he is defending the polygamists. He fabricated a conspiracy theory saying that this story is a government conspiracy to distract us from Bear Stearns. I don't think the government needs to distract most Americans from Bear Stearns because I don't think most Americans are that interested in the story. Besides, no one on talk radio is even talking about the polygamists.

Today he says "they found a bed, so what" and totally ignores a pregnant 16 year old girl with broken ribs. I'm back with the leprachan; at least he is not afraid to follow the perverts around with a camera.

[Ummahgummah]

M/M you are 100% right on Savage missing the point on the pedophile story. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that.

But he is correct in pointing out that they wouldn't have arrested these people had they been moslems..

They are definitely above the law it would seem..