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September 27, 2008

Comments

gringoman

While John McCain, probably one of the most honest and honorable men in the entire US Congress, is neverthless unable to effectively articulate the Financial Crisis, not even when he has the national spotlight in Debate with the cute Little Barry, chief showpiece of the remarkably devious and unindicted Democrats........

The following is from gringoIntel (Financial Division, Open Source.) This may or may not reflect views of gringoVision, which claims no knowledge of the Dismal Science, Economics. Pardon the non-attribution......


THE UNVARNISHED FACTS AS WE SEE THEM

World confidence in the financial markets has been badly shaken. There have been bank runs in Russia, U.K., U.S., and now Hong Kong (although Hong Kong is not really too much involved in mortgage backed securities and the heavy leverage insanity like in Europe and on Wall Street). Europe, Japan and the Anglo-Saxon world are in deep trouble and we should admit it to ourselves and take immediate action.

Rumor has it that when the Titanic first hit the iceberg, some passengers engaged in a snowball fight on the deck...clearly missing the message. Today is not so dissimilar. Many authorities, particularly politicians, seem to be blind to the simple reality. The reality is that the financial system is in grave danger. Instead of trying to cover up the problems and allowing their banking institutions to lie about their big problems, the authorities of every major country must act to recapitalize the banks of the world in order to keep the world economic system running.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, whether you like him or not, is one of the world's experts on the Great Depression of the 1930's, and he understands the problem all too well. He called Treasury Secretary Paulson (who was afraid that a bailout plan would not be easy to get by Congress) and said we have to do it now before it is too late. Chairman Bernanke is correct.

The blame belongs to all politicians and the system of government that exists in the U.S. and Europe which allows powerful interests on the political right and on the political left to manipulate politics, and allow wrong behaviors to continue (sometimes for many years) when the miscreants happen to be big donors...and Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac, AIG, and Wall Street firms were big donors to both major political parties in the U.S.

In Europe, major financial institutions have used their political influence to avoid admitting the depth of their bad debt exposures. Two very large banks in Europe have leverage of about 50 to 1 or more. The debt they carry on their balance sheets is close to the sum of the GDP of their home countries.

In Japan, their banks have continued to be mismanaged...for nearly two decades. Only in emerging Asia, because of their focus on lending to foster their own growth, has the problem been less pronounced.

That being said, we are a global economy where investments and risks spread globally, so collapses in the U.S., Europe, and Japan will hurt Asia. Asia did not make as many bad loans but they bought the problem bonds in Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and other western financial institutions.

Some time we will have a meeting and invite those who want to hear our views on how this developed. It will take a couple of hours to give a history of the federal government's intervention in the housing market, the well-meaning housing for the poor legislation, the desire to make the world safe from terrorism, other well-meaning ideas, and how we arrived so close to an economic depression in the U.S. and Europe.

gringoman

Continued from above, GringIntel, Open Source, unattributed.)


WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE ANGRY WITH WALL STREET AND POLITICIANS

The complete story on how and why the crisis developed will eventually come to light. The public will see that there were many bad actors at all layers of the mortgage finance system that helped cause the problem. Some of these people will be arrested and will go to jail. In the meantime, may we suggest that we all support the Fed and Treasury Department's plan to create liquidity in the system in the U.S...and urge the Europeans to undertake a similar program as soon as possible.

gringoman

However when I look at the ad-hominum attacks on Obama, not for his ideas but rather for who he is, I begin to see how much constitutional government is an anethema to these fascist nutjobs.
Todays attack on this board is that Obama got a free ride to Harvard from muslim radicals. It's no wonder why Gringorace-man is jealously trying to guard his own privacy because if I saw him I'd kick his butt all the way down the east-village in front of his gay friends.
Barak Obama earned his party's nomination and is the first african american; even republicans should be proud because it finally lays to rest the issue of social mobility in the US.
And you UG: what are you going to do if Obama is elected? Are you going to join up with Yoyo-man and the esteemed 911 major and blog that the POTUS belongs to Al-Queida?

Grow up UG, respect the constitution.

Posted by: GilbertWashington | September 27, 2008 at 02:31 PM

You do not tell me what to think and you do not tell me what to post. Ever.

Be clear now, Mister. Be very, very, very clear.

Are you threatening me?

M/M

Gringoman,

Here is an extensive list of prominent economists who expressed concerns to Senator Shelby about the "Paulson plan".

http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/mortgage_protest.htm

I look to Senator Shelby and the House Republicans to renegotiate the bailout plan on my behalf.

Ummahgummah

Gringoman, I would say he is threatening you. Whether or not he can make good on his threats is another story.

Funny how FreaK threatened me and now the blackface version is threatening you.


GilbertWashington

Gringoman:

I am not clear, herr Gringoman...

Here is the attribution for you article above;

http://freeofstate.org/new/?p=3935

gringoman

The point I was making though, which you MJ did not comment on was that someone posted here today that Obama was given a free ride thru Harvard Law School by muslim radicals.
Comments like that passes for toast on this board. So let me ask you MJ, do you think that Barak Obama has ties to muslim extremism or is this just yoyo-yap from a rascist wannabe?
Gringoman is telling you that Barak Obama is not a loyal american. Forgat partisan politics, do you think that Obama has terror ties?

Posted by: GilbertWashington | September 27, 2008 at 04:01 PM

MJ/Ummah/M/M:

Take a look at the technique of this devious dirtbag. ('Devious' because he's lied about being a Vietnam vet, lied about being a Republican, and slimes a veteran of 3 combat tours in Vietnam. He is also, you may have noticed, now also a devious threatening dirtbag. More on this later.)

Note how he takes offense at what is an extensive article on Obama by a highly experienced professional investigator. That is, this deeply racist sickie pretends, in effect, that I am the investigative reporter Kenneth R. Timmerman. His "sic" mind can't even notice the link to Timmerman. And if it can, then he is in effect dictating that such a link is not to be posted here. You get what that means, right? We're talking paranoid aggressive. The symptoms are clear. This puppy is down with something and he intends to stink up this site with it. I always knew it. But now the threat of violence has made what he is clear for anyone to see.

For your convenience here is the link again to the Timmerman article that goes into the very extensive background of Obama and his Leftist, Black Nationalist, Islamic and Saudi connections that even led to Harvard.

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/obama_sutton_saudi/2008/09/03/127490.html?s=al&promo_code=692E-1

Let's be clear. This GW smear agent has injected his sick self onto this site uninvited. He stays without a welcome. And now he has decided to try to dictate the discourse here, or police it, and also has entered the threat-making stage.

Just wanted you to be clear on that. If this was my site, he'd be gone by now. This is not Zimbabwe--at least not yet.

Ummahgummah

Yeah, he's like FreaK on roids. Too bad we can't kick him. On some boards you could kick asshats if a certain number of members agreed.

I am glad to have people post informative links. I am not surprised there's a SOWdi connection to the O-man.

He's playin' possum at this time but wait till AFTER the inauguration!

Account Deleted

MJFELL,

I owe you an apology. I heard tonight the Senate passed an appropriations bill that ends the ban on off-shore drilling. Previously I thought Republicans should take the Democrat's version that limits drilling outside of 50 miles.

You were right and I was wrong. It was good Republicans waited.

Cheers,

Account Deleted

Meanwhile, back in the world, Russia may be viewed as broaching, if not outright breeching, the Monroe Doctrine. The Wall Street Journal reports today, "Chávez Bolsters Links With Russia":

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122242592738578617.html

Ordinarily, this would be a non-event, however given Chavez' predisposition to socialism and hostility toward the United States, and given Russia's new flirtation with Soviet-style international mischief, and given the United States' obligatory over-extension overseas and under-extension at home (!), and given Venezuela’s position in OPEC and Russia's aspiration to use energy as a political weapon, this development bodes ill for US-Russia-Venezeula relations.

CITGO, a traditional US company, is now 50% owned by Venezeula. Since the US is nationalizing anything that moves and breaths these days, I think we should nationalize the other 50% before Russia does.

GilbertWashington

Gringoman:

I am sorry if I made you feel threatened. It was not my intention.
I do nor suppose that many folks can understand the pride felt in the candidcy of Obama, and to hear people say that he is a terrorist makes me emotionally angry. My response in wanting to kick butt came from that anger.

I have rode you here because of your plantation talk. That/s what made me stop and comment.

I am supporting Barr, no longer McCain. I do not work for Obama.

DJ

"I am sorry if I made you feel threatened. It was not my intention." ( -- Gilbert Washington)

LIAR! You just feel embarrassed because you were exposed with your pants down. Your dishonourable behavior is typical of the Left, and in keeping with your track personal record at this blog!

Account Deleted

Gringoman,

I respectfully disagree. The bailout as proposed is harmful for economy of the US and fatal for the political economic philosophy she represents.

There is no valid reason to buy 'toxic' assets, especially -- especially! -- with taxpayer funds. No politician or appointed official has adequately explained the reason to indebt future American taxpayers, our children, with such folly.

This is a classic example of Washington arrogance which brings intoxication to the mind of those in power (that is what is toxic!) to lead them to believe they can determine 'failure' and 'success' in the market.

While Congress and the White House are fooling around, look what is happening in the market: stronger banks (JPMorgan, Bank of America) are absorbing weaker ones (WuMu, Bear, Merrill, perhaps soon Wachovia), regional healthy banks (PNC) refuse to participate in the bailout because they will come out ahead without the assistance, traditional bulge bracket firms have either been bought (Bear, Merrill), or converted to bank holding companies (Morgan Stanley, Goldman) and the smaller investment banks (Lazard) are so far OK.

The market is working.

To the extent the banks need liquidity, a colleague of Milton Friedman, Anna Schwartz, wrote the following in a paper in October 1992 "The Misuse of the Fed's Discount Window":

"Discount window accommodation [favorable loans by the Fed] to insolvent institutions, whether banks or nonbanks, misallocates resources."

She was talking about loans! ... not even outright purchase of bad debt, as is being proposed now.

So ... to the extent the financial system needs liquidity, the Fed has a system to provide it: purchase T-bills and T-notes in open market. That puts money into the system, money flows to the most efficient lender and borrower, and the economy gets moving again.

And as an aside, the European Central Bank understands this now better than the US, chase-the-interest-rate, Fed. See www.ecb.int.

Regards,

Account Deleted

DJ - give it a rest. He apologized. Unless you are the Holy Spirit, you can't presume to know what is in his heart.

And if you were HS you wouldn't talk like that.

J. Pierpont Finch

9/27/08: Chinese tainted milk crisis hits more global companies - Your favorite chocolate or creamy treats might contain milk contaminated with melamine.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080927/D93F1MIO0.html

HUMMM - SEEMS FAIR IN A PERVERSE WAY.
-------------------------------------
We get tainted milk products and chocolate in exchange for Toxic Subprime Mortgage Securities.


FK

UG --

You of all people should be glad that contributors can't be kicked off this blog. I suspect you'd be top of the list.

FK

DJ --

A little too much caffeine?

GilbertWashington

DJ makes a sudden but noticible entry (hmmm).

"LIAR! You just feel embarrassed because you were exposed with your pants down. Your dishonourable behavior is typical of the Left, and in keeping with your track personal record at this blog!"

Whatever my views, with minor but notable exception, are decidely mainstream. You would'nt be a roomate of or a surrogate for Gringoman who has some how claimed ownership of this blog by adverse possession?:

" He stays without a welcome."

So you DJ come out from hiding to ratify the fascist who would have america believe that Obama is a terrorist.
Psst, let me whisper a little secret to you DJ: Gringotontobobo doesn't believe it either. He just thinks that a black man should be outside the WhiteHouse opening doors and pocketing tips.

So DJ whoever you are, come up with something that shows you use your head for something besides a hatrack.

capiche?


GilbertWashington

Here is Gringomans hard hitting Kenneth Timmerman who wrote that Obama went to Harvard courtesy of terrorists (Note REGENERY PRESS, Michael) From WIKI

One might note his extensive writings on WMD published by Regenery and absolutly none were true:
+

"Timmerman has been accused of yellow journalism in relation to his work on Iraqi WMDs.[1]

He has also been accused of excessive partisanship in relation to Iran and his work on the Foundation for Democracy in Iran. As the American founder of an organization that claims to represent the interests of Iranian democrats, his opinions have little influence in the Iranian diaspora.

He has been accused of stoking conflict with Iran (a charge which his supporters deny), by misrepresenting the threat of an Iranian nuclear weapons program, as well as denouncing the National Intelligence Estimate which clearly states that Iran had ended a project to design nuclear warheads some years ago, although they increased their efforts on the more important parts of their program for building nuclear weapons. Timmerman denounced the misleading way in which the unclassified summary of the report described the report's conclusions.


[edit] Bibliography
The Wren Hunt Bran's Head Books 1976, 1982 ISBN 0-905220-32-3
The Iskra Scrolls novella Handshake Press Paris 1980
Fanning the Flames: Guns, Greed, and Geopolitics in the Gulf War syndicated by New York Times Syndication Sales, 1987, published in book form as Ol ins Feuer, Orell Fssl, 1988
La Grande Fauche: Le vol de la haute technologie (Gorbachev's Technology Wars: How the U.S.S.R Arms Itself in the West) Editions Plon Paris 1989
The Poison Gas Connection: The Chemical Weapons Programs of Iraq and Libya Simon Wiesenthal Center Los Angeles 1990
The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq Houghton Mifflin Boston 1991 ISBN 0-395-59305-0
The BNL Blunder: How the U.S. Policy Allowed a Bank in Atlanta to Finance Saddam Hussein's War Machine Simon Wiesenthal Center Los Angeles 1991
Weapons of Mass Destruction: the Cases of Iran, Syria and Libya Simon Wiesenthal Center Los Angeles 1992
Selling Out America: The American Spectator Investigations Xlibris Philadelphia Pennsylvania 2000 ISBN 0-7388-2858-0
Shakedown: Exposing the Real Jesse Jackson Regenery Washington DC 2002 ISBN 0-89526-165-0
Preachers of Hate: Islam and the War on America Crown Forum 2003 ISBN 1-4000-4901-6
The French Betrayal of America Crown Forum 2004 ISBN 1-4000-5366-8
Countdown to Crisis: The Coming Nuclear Showdown with Iran Crown Forum 2005 ISBN 1-4000-5368-4
Shadow Warriors: The Untold Story of Traitors, Saboteurs, and the Party of Surrender Crown Forum 2007 ISBN 0-307-35209-5 "

Gringoman you are a jackass.


Account Deleted

"Gringoman you are a jackass."

- GilbertWashington

------------------

Gilbert,

Good thing you apologized first, otherwise we would be confused about your real feelings.

mjfell

MJFELL,

I owe you an apology. I heard tonight the Senate passed an appropriations bill that ends the ban on off-shore drilling. Previously I thought Republicans should take the Democrat's version that limits drilling outside of 50 miles.

You were right and I was wrong. It was good Republicans waited.

Cheers,

Posted by: Michael Avari | September 27, 2008 at 07:40 PM

Michael--

No worries.

In the words of Newt Gingrich: Drill here, drill now, pay less.

It's ridiculous to ignore our domestic energy resources. Yes, we need to convert to alternative, renewable energy sources. The sooner the better. However, the overwhelming bulk of this country's infastructure is built upon and based upon the use of fossil fuels, particularly petroleum. It's absolutely insane for us to keep sending hundreds of billions of dollars OUT of our own economy for oil when we have enough "traditional" domestic energy resources to power our needs for sixty years. Especially give the current state of our financial institutions. Given the power of American ingenuity, creativity and productivity it seems unlikely that it'll take longer than sixty years to re-tool. We should tap into our own oil, keep the money in our own economy, use it to power the conversion over to alternative energy, and tell OPEC to take a hike.

Now.

This would also put people to work. Drilling for oil and gas, digging for coal, converting wind, solar and tides to electricity...these and other types of solutions won't happen without people being engaged in their construction. This will be a private sector driven solution for the ailing economy. Instead of taking money out of the pockets of taxpayers to pay for some poorly conceived and mismanaged government "alternative energy" program, it will generate tax revenue for the Federal Government.

Jimmy Carter levied a massive windfall tax on the oil companies during his term as President. The purpose was to use that money for the creation of "alternative energy sources". Well President Carter, here we are thirty years later and the country is still waiting for your solutions.

The problem (as usual) is the Democrats.

Account Deleted

MJ,

I agree. Please see:

http://americancivility.us/american-civility/2008/6/22/break-the-cartel.html

regards,

DJ

"So you DJ come out from hiding to ratify the fascist who would have america believe that Obama is a terrorist."

Obama isn't smart enough to be a terrorist, Gilbert. Absent affirmative-action, Obama's real abilities would only qualify him to be no more than a supervisor of a crew of janitors. Of course, you know I'm right, don't you?

mjfell

"So you DJ come out from hiding to ratify the fascist who would have america believe that Obama is a terrorist."

Obama isn't smart enough to be a terrorist, Gilbert. Absent affirmative-action, Obama's real abilities would only qualify him to be no more than a supervisor of a crew of janitors. Of course, you know I'm right, don't you?


Posted by: DJ | September 27, 2008 at 09:50 PM

DJ--

Don't you think you're being a wee bit hard on the poor lad? After all, he did go to law school and pass the bar exam.

Qualified to be President of the United States?

NO, definitely NOT!

Is Obama the affirmative action candidate?

YES, absolutely, positively YES!!

Attorney for the ACLU would be a perfect fit for his style and beliefs.

FK

DJ --

You are definitely overdoing the ranting and raving about Obama's intelligence. It's clear he's no dolt. The question is whether he is smart enough to be president.

Both Bushes failed that test.

Reagan was lovable, but he failed that test, too.

And McCain? Well. I respect his service to this country, but he's no intellectual giant.

The smartest president we've had in the last 34 years was Bill Clinton, and he unfortunately balanced out his intelligence with extreme personal failings. (I said 34 years because Nixon was no dummy, but also had extreme personal failings . . . see a pattern here?)

DJ

"Don't you think you're being a wee bit hard on the poor lad?" (-- mjfell)

Yes, I think I am. I'll back off.

mjfell

MJ,

I agree. Please see:

http://americancivility.us/american-civility/2008/6/22/break-the-cartel.html

regards,

Posted by: Michael Avari | September 27, 2008 at 09:46 PM

Michael--

Good article. Too bad we can't get this type of intelligence elected into Congress.

You know the old saying:

If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite of progress is Congress.

DJ

"The smartest president we've had in the last 34 years was Bill Clinton"

No, Fred, the "smartest" president we had in the last 34 years was you boy, Jimmy Carter - he had an IQ of 165.

Ummahgummah

Once again we have the "angry puppy" trying to be clever and conflate things and then top it off with a healthy helping of racial rhetoric designed to make us feel guilty for questioning the Anointed ONE, and tightening up support from the liberal foot soldiers.

NONE said that Osbama ***IS*** a terrorist. What was said is that he HANGS OUT WITH TERRORISTS!!!

For good measure I'd like to remidf the group of Osbama's associations with the moslem-allied Raila Odinga in Osbama's native country of Kenya.

If he got elected this might pose and additional problem.

I am seriously resentful that there are this constant insinuations of racism because we dare discuss the Ossein's record and whom he associates with and WHAT HE DOES AND SAYS!!

We have EVERY RIGHT to discuss these things!

BASTA!

Ummahgummah

Ps. And given the absolutely outrageous behavior of the press regarding the Demoncrat candidate it is absolutely fair to speak of affirmative action reporting!

mjfell

Ps. And given the absolutely outrageous behavior of the press regarding the Demoncrat candidate it is absolutely fair to speak of affirmative action reporting!

Posted by: Ummah Gummah | September 27, 2008 at 11:03 PM

Ummah--

Never mind the absolutely ourtageous behavior of the press regarding Omama. Look at the manner in which he "won" the nomination. Chicago thug intimidation of Clinton supporters at numerous caucuses (including Iowa-his "breakout" state). 10% of Obama's "earned" delegates were "won" at the caucuses. Enough to beat Clinton? Nope. She had too many voters on her side. Dean, Pelosi and Reid had to make sure the "Super Delegates" cinched Obama's nomination.

Affirmative action if I ever saw it!

Obama's being elected will only prove that the masses are asses.

"Gee, John McCain is Bush's third term...I saw it on MSNBC, it's GOTTA be true!"

Can you say 1984?

Or f***ing idiots...like NOW, which promotes left wing women who support abortion but attacks a conservative woman like rabid wolves. Isn't it supposed to be the National Organization of Women?

Can you say hidden agenda?

Like George Orwell warned in his book Animal Farm:

All animals are created equal
Some animals are more equal than others

mjfell

"The smartest president we've had in the last 34 years was Bill Clinton"

No, Fred, the "smartest" president we had in the last 34 years was you boy, Jimmy Carter - he had an IQ of 165.

Posted by: DJ | September 27, 2008 at 10:38 PM

The IQ of the candidate is much less relevant than the direction he wants to take the country.

The United States is a great country founded on the traditions of English law (see Magna Carta), where the common language is Englilsh, where individuals can achieve their goals unencumbered by the British crown and the British government.

The financial sucess of this country has always be the result of Capitalism: financial reward for creativity, invention, hard work and good ideas. Improving the state of the population while making a profit from your invention is how this country became what it's been, and hopefully, will continue to be.

If Barack Obama is elected President of the United States the left wing of the Democratic party will control the House of Representatives, the Senate and the White House.

Can you say: The end of Capitalism and the introduction of Socialism?

Just look at the "rescue" package the Democrats have been trying to shove down the throats of American taxpayers and Congress by using fear tactics.

Pray that the House Republicans stick to their guns and insist on a bill that's not so fatally flawed.

With Dean, Reid, Pelosi and their minions in control of Congress and Obama signing every pork laden spending bill they'll pass into law we might skip right over socialims to communism.

VOTE FOR McCAIN!

mjfell

Can you say hidden agenda?

Like George Orwell warned in his book Animal Farm:

All animals are created equal
Some animals are more equal than others


Posted by: mjfell | September 28, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Come to think about it, the "lipstick on a pig" metaphor is most appropriate for this election.

Barack Obama is just like the pigs from Orwell's "Animal Farm".

Playing along, biding his time until it's too late for anyone to stop him when he finally plays his true hand.

FK

I'm glad to see we have Orwell fans on this blog because the last 7 1/2 years of George W. Bush have been like something out of "1984", where the government alters what has been said in the past in order to control the future. For instance, we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people, right? Not because the Administration insisted that we had hard evidence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction?

Ummahgummah

MJ,

Leave it to the FreaK to try and destroy a completely valid thought expressed by one of of by using one of his distraction-by-talking point tricks.

It's beyond disgusting.

MJ, I think exactly the same way. Osbama has a hidden agenda, which has been revealing itself to those of us who pay attention.

We may not know the exact way he is planning to fulfill his agenda, but we now he is up to something.

I even heard his supporters say so on the radio. Black liberal station in NYC.

They know it - we know it.

They call it "playin' possum".

FK

UG --

Leave it to you to twist what I say and call it disgusting when it is right on point, and there was nothing "disgusting" about the way I expressed it.

I so hope that Obama wins so your head explodes.

There! That was disgusting! Do you see the difference, a**hole?

FK

Polling Data
Poll Date Sample Obama (D) McCain (R) Spread
RCP Average 09/21 - 09/27 -- 47.9 43.6 Obama +4.3
Rasmussen Tracking 09/25 - 09/27 3000 LV 50 44 Obama +6
Gallup Tracking 09/24 - 09/26 2759 RV 49 44 Obama +5
Hotline/FD Tracking 09/24 - 09/26 914 RV 48 43 Obama +5
GW/Battleground Tracking 09/21 - 09/25 1000 LV 46 48 McCain +2
CBS News/NY Times 09/21 - 09/24 LV 48 43 Obama +5
FOX News 09/22 - 09/23 900 RV 45 39 Obama +6
Marist 09/22 - 09/23 689 LV 49 44 Obama +5

GilbertWashington

Gringoman siezes the dramatic moment as if he were in one of his plays:


"You do not tell me what to think and you do not tell me what to post. Ever"

Puppy, no one tells you what to think. You have been telling us- stealth like- all of the advantages of national-socialism. Race canard, eugenics makes it simple and stuff like that. You resent push back though like a cockroach resents a flashlight.

Also faux-clever:

"This country is not Zimbabwe. At least not yet."

That could happen though on Nov 3, right? C'mon man, say what YOU think.

GilbertWashington

Fred id bouyed by the polls:

"Polling Data
Poll Date Sample Obama (D) McCain (R) Spread
RCP Average 09/21 - 09/27 -- 47.9 43.6 Obama +4.3
Rasmussen Tracking 09/25 - 09/27 3000 LV 50 44 Obama +6
Gallup Tracking 09/24 - 09/26 2759 RV 49 44 Obama +5
Hotline/FD Tracking 09/24 - 09/26 914 RV 48 43 Obama +5
GW/Battleground Tracking 09/21 - 09/25 1000 LV 46 48 McCain +2
CBS News/NY Times 09/21 - 09/24 LV 48 43 Obama +5
FOX News 09/22 - 09/23 900 RV 45 39 Obama +6
Marist 09/22 - 09/23 689 LV 49 44 Obama "

I heard half of the debate on the radio in my car and saw about 1/3 on TV. I had the opposite reaction and thought that McC did a better selling job. Both played a little loose with facts and in an earlier america the role of the press would be to ferret out the truth from fiction (fighting for truth, exposing the corrupt). Today though the commentary is centered on the atmospherics (why can't McC look at Obama, why is Obama so ethereal?) and that reflects how people comment on the debate. Even here.
The atmospherics will not much impact as will the policies either of these men will persue in office.
Thus the press both colors our perception of what we hear and betrays us in not informing us of substantitive differences between these men.

GilbertWashington

Fred:

These are children in adult bodies playing games:

" so hope that Obama wins so your head explodes.

There! That was disgusting! Do you see the difference, a**hole?"

So far we have Gringoman, MjFell, & UmmahGummah saying that the next POTUS has ties to terror. Even their main men, McC & Bush, have explicitly said (at different times) that they do not question the patriotism of Obama. That job is left to the wingnuts and Regenery.
Hey, I could find a webpage that compares McC to Hitler or compares Bush to a chimp. I remember the same election canards in '04 where Kerry was photoshopped into arab clothing and compared by Regenery to binLaden.
So among the white-guys-without-a-life this is the cyber equivilent of deer hunting.
In the far-right wing blogs you find all sorts of whako ad-hominum asssertions. You will never find even one example of a moderator correcting the disrespect to a candidates integrity. I think this is because the mainstrean Republican keeps a quit distance but with tacit approval relies on smears against patriotism for stategic advantage.

Thus the same people who tarred McC in SC in 2000 and said that his capitivity made him insane, that he fathered a black child, that he beats his wife, have all ben hired on to help him get elected in 2008. If he were running as a DEM then all of these things plus his being tied to binLaden would be coming out of these same wingnuts on this board. They did in 2000. They think this is being american.

mjfell

I'm glad to see we have Orwell fans on this blog because the last 7 1/2 years of George W. Bush have been like something out of "1984", where the government alters what has been said in the past in order to control the future. For instance, we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people, right? Not because the Administration insisted that we had hard evidence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction?

Posted by: FredK2929 | September 28, 2008 at 12:48 AM


Fred--

The fact is, the Iraqui people were liberated as a result of the invasion.

If you want to start talking about spin doctors it would only be fair to look at BOTH sides. It's easy to see that both Obama and McCain have gone over the top in their negative, misleading ads.

The difference between McCain and Obama is simple:

Obama will sign all the looming big spending bills the next Democratic Congress will pass.

McCain will veto them.

If you want to jump start the USA down the road to Socialism vote for Obama.

If you want to preserve Capitalism and the America you grew up in vote for McCain.

That's an easy choice for me.

VOTE McCAIN FOR PRESIDENT

mjfell

I'm glad to see we have Orwell fans on this blog because the last 7 1/2 years of George W. Bush have been like something out of "1984", where the government alters what has been said in the past in order to control the future. For instance, we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people, right? Not because the Administration insisted that we had hard evidence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction?

Posted by: FredK2929 | September 28, 2008 at 12:48 AM

Fred--

The fact is:

We invaded Iraq to prevent Saddam from using his WMD or from giving them to terrorist groups who would use the against the USA or our allies.

The Iraqui people having been freed is the result of the invasion, not the motive.

I'm not like liberal Democratic lemmings who'll blindly follow their sweet talking leader over a cliff without checking first.

mjfell

Fred:

These are children in adult bodies playing games:

" so hope that Obama wins so your head explodes.

There! That was disgusting! Do you see the difference, a**hole?"

So far we have Gringoman, MjFell, & UmmahGummah saying that the next POTUS has ties to terror. Even their main men, McC & Bush, have explicitly said (at different times) that they do not question the patriotism of Obama. That job is left to the wingnuts and Regenery.
Hey, I could find a webpage that compares McC to Hitler or compares Bush to a chimp. I remember the same election canards in '04 where Kerry was photoshopped into arab clothing and compared by Regenery to binLaden.
So among the white-guys-without-a-life this is the cyber equivilent of deer hunting.
In the far-right wing blogs you find all sorts of whako ad-hominum asssertions. You will never find even one example of a moderator correcting the disrespect to a candidates integrity. I think this is because the mainstrean Republican keeps a quit distance but with tacit approval relies on smears against patriotism for stategic advantage.

Thus the same people who tarred McC in SC in 2000 and said that his capitivity made him insane, that he fathered a black child, that he beats his wife, have all ben hired on to help him get elected in 2008. If he were running as a DEM then all of these things plus his being tied to binLaden would be coming out of these same wingnuts on this board. They did in 2000. They think this is being american.

Posted by: GilbertWashington | September 28, 2008 at 12:10 PM


Gilbert--

Typical emotional name calling from the left.

BOTH SIDES have taken lines out of context, edited them carefully into misleading commercials or repeated them on the stump. Obama is especially guilty of constantly repeating lines out of context in his stump speeches. He does it constantly.

If you want to call me names I don't care. Such behavior only sheds a negative light on you.

mjfell

The worst part is, every time Obama takes McCain's lines out of context and repeats them on the stump we have the mainstream media showing that 15 second sound bite over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

As a result, lemmings are blindly following an affirmatiove action silver tongued devil who's going to sell the USA and our economy out to the radical far left agenda.

GilbertWashington

MJFELL suffers hyper-sensitivity, desires illumination:

" you want to call me names I don't care. Such behavior only sheds a negative light on you.

Posted by: mjfell | September 28, 2008 at 12:39 PM "

Here is the sum total of my refernce to you:

"So far we have Gringoman, MjFell, & UmmahGummah saying that the next POTUS has ties to terror."

You did say that Barak has unsavory friends and that at least on of them is/was a terrorist, yes?

GilbertWashington

MJ FELL echos the Republican fortress mentality requiring a herculian effort to triumph against all odds:

"The worst part is, every time Obama takes McCain's lines out of context and repeats them on the stump we have the mainstream media showing that 15 second sound bite over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over"

This has been part of the right-wing ethos for some time, where does it come from?

Ummahgummah

Even their main men, McC & Bush, have explicitly said (at different times) that they do not question the patriotism of Obama.

---

You disingenuous FOOL. You know d@mn well they HAVE to say that out of expediency.

AFAIC W. Bush isn't a patriot either but at least he doesn't LOATHE this country. He's just a wealthy patrician who sees everyone as manipulable little pawns.

But leave it to the dyed-in-the-wool LiEEEberal GilFreaK entity to keep hammering the same off-kilter mantras in order to muddy the waters.

FACT is that Osamabama is FRIENDS with William Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn and rev. Wrong. FACT is he also went to Libya with Screwie Louie FaraKKKan and the church he belongs to gave Louie a lifetime achievement award.

You can call these associations an expression of his unique patriotism but to me they suggest.. no they SCREAM that he really LOATHES this country which has indeed given him and his family so much.

And now he wants MORE.

Don't expect him to say Thank You either.

mjfell

MJFELL suffers hyper-sensitivity, desires illumination:

" you want to call me names I don't care. Such behavior only sheds a negative light on you.

Posted by: mjfell | September 28, 2008 at 12:39 PM "

Here is the sum total of my refernce to you:

"So far we have Gringoman, MjFell, & UmmahGummah saying that the next POTUS has ties to terror."

You did say that Barak has unsavory friends and that at least on of them is/was a terrorist, yes?

Posted by: GilbertWashington | September 28, 2008 at 01:01 PM


Gilbert--

You also said:

These are children in adult bodies playing games

So typical that you would cherry pick lines...

Yes, I did say that Obama has unsavory friends (because he does, what's your point?) and that at least one of them is a terrorist...try reading about who William Ayers is and his terrorist activities.

Ummahgummah

You did say that Barak has unsavory friends and that at least on of them is/was a terrorist, yes?

POSTED BY: GILBERTWASHINGTON

---

HOW many times to I have to REPEAT myself?

YES YES YES on BOTH counts!

Yes, he has unsavory friends and YES at least one of them is an UNREPENTANT terrorist.

Now if only the McCain campaign would start to hammer home the points in their advertising!

mjfell

MJ FELL echos the Republican fortress mentality requiring a herculian effort to triumph against all odds:

"The worst part is, every time Obama takes McCain's lines out of context and repeats them on the stump we have the mainstream media showing that 15 second sound bite over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over"

This has been part of the right-wing ethos for some time, where does it come from?

Posted by: GilbertWashington | September 28, 2008 at 01:04 PM


Gilbert--

It comes from observation of the fact that the mainstream media does not provide this country with unbiased coverage.

NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN and especially MSNBC are so left of center it's absolutely and completely ridiculous. MSNBC sounds like the mass media arm of MoveOn.org.

But I hardly expect you to be able to observe this simple truth.

Examples:

"John McCain is George Bush's third term!"

This statement is completely ignorant of the facts and has been repeated ad nauseum by the Democratic party in general and specifically the Obama campaign. The mainstream media loops this and other Democratic statement constantly in their "news".

"John McCain wants to stay at war in Iraq for a hundred years!"

This statement is totally inaccurate and a vicious distortion. McCain said after the war is over we might have a non-combat military presence in Iraq for an extended period of time. Like we have in Europe or Japan. Perhaps even a hundred years. This complete distortion of McCain's statement has constantly been repeated by Obama, and in the mainstream media through their coverage of his stump speeches.

Obama at a rally:

"John McCain say's, and I quote: "The fundamentals of our economy are strong!" What economy is John McCain talking about?"

Another prime example of Obama taking a statement McCain made out of context and distorting it. McCain's line (cherry picked by Obama) about the fundamentals was intended to reassure worried voters and was preceded by a description of how serious and dire the situation really is. Obama conveniently left out the first part...Obama continues to use it on the stump and has repeated it over and over and over...predictabaly the mainstream media makes sure to show Obama's stump speech attacks on their nightly news every single day.

Hell, the collective pundits always make sure to mention that every time the campaign topic changes to the ecomomy that favors Obama...can you say mainstream media repetition of a subliminal message??????

If you can't see any of that then you're sorely in need of some glasses.

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